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Discussion in 'Super Series (MP4-12C, 650S, 675LT, and 720S)' started by aaronrgonz, Dec 17, 2018.
God please no more 488 vs 720s. Both great cars silly silly argument.
As you say please provide your sources on the Pista. On Fchat there were a couple Speciales for sale, one recently below MSRP. Another user traded his below MSRP. I know the market, I am in it.
McLaren sold 3340 cars for FY 2017, most of which are 570's. They grew the business to 5000 globally f0r 2018. Bread and butter is the 570 coupe, GT and spider. Ferrari's numbers are online for the 488 you can extrapolate out how many of those 488s are now Pistas. Consider the Pista is at a much higher margin and Ferrari is sucking wind with their financials they will pump these out. It is a production vehicle, it is NOT and LE.
The early Pista's are very high MSRP's. In the $460 to $470K range. Factor in the other money losing cars that a person had to buy and they would have to sell north of $550K just to break even.
Case in point; Friend of mine has been buying new ferrari's and leasing them for over 10 years. A few hundred thousand in the red. He bought a Lusso to get the Pista. He told me he lost $40K on the lusso sale (his ego talking, as he really lost $80K) and his Pista is going to come in at around $480K for February delivery. He said that he had a buyer at $200K above MSRP (real story is that he doesn't have a buyer and is hoping for $100K over which as you can see would still cause him a loss in the two car transaction).
A lot of fake news when it comes to value, etc. Unfortunately, a lot of new buyers monitoring car forums feed into this fake news and choose that as a reason to get into one marque over another and they learn real quick how this game is played.
a friend just showed me the latest times from a fast car shoot out at magny cours.....
pista posted a 1.44.90
720s posted a 1.47.05
so......the LT version of the 720s has some catching up to do.
from an aesthetic standpoint, i like the 720 shape, but its hard to argue with that kind of power and speed.
i wonder what the senna would do around that circuit for comparison
I think it should be a prerequisite to post what cars you actually own and have owned before making a post as “a Pista will be worth millions”
Christ - where do you people come up with this stuff.
I guessed if I raced for a living that would be important--and probably worth $200k more. Thankfully I don't.
LT is going to be amazing and the cycle will continue. Thankfully someone is keeping Ferrari on their toes...
Did your friend say if they were comparing stock to stock or was it factory (Ferrari) to stock (McLaren). Ferrari has a history, ask Chris Harris about sending juiced cars to comparison events. With Porsche, McLaren and for the most part under Audi ownership, Lamborghini, you get what you see, Ferrari not so much. From personal experience I can say my 360 Modena and F430 Spider, were no where near what you saw reported in the magazines.
My two cents,
that is a valid point of course.
perhaps this was the case.
but read the latest drive report in Enzo by frankel and see what he says - he believes its actually too fast to be on the road.
more evidence will be forthcoming across the world pretty soon tho i imagine.
Ross, all of these cars are too fast for the roads. Heck a stock (dragtimes) 720 just ran 0-60 in 2.3 seconds with better rubber. That's just insane. Track numbers have too many variables - we've been through this. Driver, car, tires, conditions. These cars are better than race cars from just a few years ago. Dont get hung up on these reviews, they change when the wind blows.
oh i know, and i am not hung up on them at all.
i merely made reference to the article since frankel is an old hand at this game and has seen plenty, so his words carry some weight.....and if he thinks the pista is too much for the road, it does mean the car is probably at the outer edge of what should be allowed. it also means that without the computers most drivers would be lost.
Both Pista and 720s are too much for the road without computers. I think without 4wd traction anything below an 11 second quarter mile in a straight line is just dangerous without electronic aids. Think about the mid 2000’s and the performance. Sure the tires are better today but an Enzo wasn’t ripping 9.8 quarter miles for a reason.
valid point - without computers just about everything made in the last 10 years would be difficult for 99% of drivers to control at higher cornering speeds.
turn the aids off in a 599 gtb and go try and do and aggressive lap - you will spin.
One of the issues at hand is that Ferrari and McLaren products are at different phases. The 720S and the standard 488 are competitors, so the Pista-to-720S comparisons are not of direct competing products. The Macca up-spec 720 that will compete with the Pista has not yet been released, so any comparison is not really head-to-head for direct market competing models.
I don’t quibble much about these things. The perfect garage has both of these are others in it. But McLaren is punching way above its weight (pun intended) with all their products. I personally lament the lack of a V12 or V10 Macca model, at least as a flagship model; so it would be my desire to see another model “above” the 720-series that is V12-powered.
The 488 competes with the 720 and loses in pretty much every way. That’s not to impune the 488 as it is a fantastic car, but McLaren has set the bar higher. The 7XXLT will compete with the Pista. Most are expecting that release sometime next year.
absolutely, which is why pista vs 720s is a better comparison. Much more interesting to discuss statistically competitive cars, especially with when there's not very much head to head track/race info out there
The Mustang GT and Lexus LC 500 are not direct competing products but similar specs make for a fun comparison!
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You do realize this is really just for bragging rights at coffee, correct? An experienced driver in a Taurus would set a better lap time than most punters in their Pista, 720 or whatever..... if we could actually get them to a track!
Basically, these are all great cars. Buy whichever puts the biggest smile on your face!
this is not my first rodeo.....
however, your analogy is not applicable in this instance since the times posted were all of super cars on the same track on the same day by the same group of drivers.
Did they have the same tires? Nope, they did not. Big difference there in stopping, turn in, and putting power down. Was it the exact same driver or a driver from the "group"?
They will run the next one and the 720 will beat the Pista by 2 seconds or whatever, then what?
You have my garage! (That I want! Other than I might keep my 458 instead of a 488)
I'm glad this isn't your first rodeo. I've been an HPDE instructor for a long time and unless I'm missing something and all of a sudden the average owners of these cars have gotten an incredible skill set, all this talk about lap times and which supercar is faster, blah, blah, blah is academic bragging rights at coffee. Aside from he occasional foot to the floor in a straight line for a few seconds, most are used to go to coffee and the valet stand. The vast majority of exotic/supercar owners that I have instructed (if we can get them to a track), shouldn't be let loose with 75hp, let alone 600+.
What I was stating is that all the 'magazine racing' is silly, since a skilled driver in a VW Golf, Taurus or whatever, will generally humiliate the average supercar owner on a given stretch of road or track. My point was, all these cars are great. Just pick your poison and go enjoy it. But the levels and limits of these cars are so high, unless you do go to a track, you will barely scratch the surface. And if you do go to a track...... get an experienced instructor! What you will learn will make you faster, safer and allow you to enjoy the incredible engineering feats these cars are.
Nothing wrong with getting coffee or having the best car at the valet stand. Most (the vast majority) don't care about tracking these things, but it is fun bragging rights and pecker measuring every now and again.
It's all good fun! But just like the guys that brag about all the sex they are having usually are home alone with a magazine.... I prefer taking the humble approach.
I know that everyone is free to enjoy this stuff in their own way, but the depth of ability that these cars have is usually neglected (along with the experience), in favor of magazine racing. If I can get a guy to experience his car on a track, they usually get hooked. I was instructing a guy in my relatively stock E46 M3 and we came up on a Ford GT with a license plate that read: 750RWHP. I could see that he had no idea where the line was, but I could see him looking in his mirror as I approached. I pushed him a bit and sure enough he went off. He came over to me at the end of the session and asked for help. I spent the rest of the weekend with that guy and he was able to enjoy the car (without killing himself) much more. I did the same with a guy with a Galardo tt. However, that car was barely drivable in anything but a straight line!
Dino- this reminds me- New Years resolution for me- take the 488 and 720 out to a track!
I get it--it's clear you are a track nut--that's awesome! If I had more time I'd find my way out there more often. I have the right toys to do that indeed, but at the end of the day driving around town, headed to airport and going out for dinner is what my cars get used for most often. Never brag about sex, as there is always someone with a hotter wife and assured he's having plenty. I stay away from that conversation.
Enjoy your 570 and track the heck out of it. I tend to see most of your pics are going to get coffee though
And SoCal don't give up on me...few days left in the year to pull something out of hat